A Not So Discreet Secret
Detroit Pistons Denver Nuggets Detroit Pistons Forward Antonio McDyess surprises nobody and holds up his end of a clandestine deal to go back to Motown.
Perhaps NBA followers are supposed to be surprised. Or, at least, act surprised. But to the real shock of absolutely no one, Antonio McDyess informed everyone…..gasp, get ready for this….that he’s going back to the Detroit Pistons as soon as he is allowed to under NBA rules on December 3rd.
It’s one of the absolute worst rules in the NBA, and it should be changed in the next collective bargaining agreement. But alas, for right now, it’s perfectly legal, and so the Detroit Pistons have been allowed to conduct a trade that under normal circumstances would not be allowed by the CBA. You see, just trading Chauncey Billups for Allen Iverson wouldn’t work, because their salaries don’t match. To take on so much salary in Iverson, Pistons GM Joe Dumars needed to circumvent the rules somehow. So he asked Antonio McDyess to play a pawn in his little game.
McDyess was included in the trade to Denver, but he made such a stink about not playing in Denver, that the Nuggets agreed to buy out his contract and once McDyess cleared waivers, he was free to sign wherever he pleased. The only stipulation was he has to wait 30 days to sign back with the Pistons. After toying around with a few teams, one of them being Cleveland, and pretending like he was actually considering signing somewhere other than Detroit (and it sure was convincing….by all accounts Danny Ferry never fooled himself into believing McDyess was ever going anywhere but Detroit), McDyess finally lived up to his end of the agreement with Dumars.
According to A. Sherrod Blakely for MLive.com,
“The Detroit Pistons were defeated 106-80 by a bad Minnesota Timberwolves team Sunday, but not everything was bad for Detroit.
They received a bit of good news from Antonio McDyess, who informed the Pistons that, as expected, he will re-sign with them next month.
McDyess was part of the four-player trade with Denver earlier this month that brought Allen Iverson to Detroit.
“We looked at two or three different scenarios besides Detroit,” McDyess’ agent, Andy Miller, said in a phone interview Sunday night. “Antonio felt he started something in Detroit, and felt an obligation to his teammates, the fans and the organization, to finish it.”"
Nobody will ever know for sure if there was actually a handshake deal in place between Dumars and McDyess, but it’s hard to look at this objectively and not read between the lines. McDyess’ agent sure has been adamant in making sure everyone knows how much thought Antonio put into signing a couple different places, but in the end felt “obligated” to return to Detroit. Either way, it’s not legality of this that’s so frustrating, it’s that it makes such a huge impact on the balance of power, not just within the Central Division, but within the entire Eastern Conference.
Antonio McDyess is not a superstar, but he is a difference maker. There’s no denying the Pistons are a dramatically better team with him than without him. There’s no denying the depth he would have provided to Cleveland’s frontcourt would have made the Cavaliers a better team. This one loophole rule could be the difference ultimately between a 1st place and 2nd place finish in the Central Division for these two teams.
If anything, you might say that McDyess’ value to the Cavaliers was not so much in what he gave to the Cavs, but what him being in Cleveland would have taken away from the Pistons. When one singular move has the potential to make such a difference for two teams, it’s worth examining the spirit of this rule.
To be clear, nobody broke any rules here. Every team acted precisely in a manner that is well within their rights under the current CBA. The Nuggets had every right to buy out McDyess’ contract. Why would the Nuggets, a team already slashing payroll to get under the luxury tax level, want to keep paying a high salary to a player who has no intention of showing up and playing there? So the Nuggets did what was best for them, and worked out a buyout for McDyess. If McDyess wants to wait 30 days to play and if he wants to give up even more money beyond what he left behind in his buyout with Denver, it’s his right to do so and to sign with the Pistons.
But maybe, just maybe, the NBA needs to clean up this rule. It makes it entirely too easy for teams to get around certain rules that are in place for a reason. The rule requiring the salaries in a deal to matchup is in place as a form of safeguarding against uneven trades. A trade of Billups and McDyess for Iverson sounds somewhat fair, but a trade of Billups for Iverson straight up is in no way a fair or even trade. Yeah, the Nuggets got what they wanted in the form of a salary dump, but this affects other teams. The Cavaliers, Celtics, and Bobcats were all teams expected to have a shot at McDyess…..if he wasn’t already determined to go back to Detroit, of course.
Nobody gives up the amount of money of McDyess did out of just loyalty alone. While terms of his Denver buyout were not disclosed, league sources have indicated it was as much as $9 million. Then, factor in the fact that the most Detroit could offer him was $1.9 million, while Cleveland could offer him multiple years starting at around $5 million this year, and you’re looking at over $12 million left on the table by McDyess. It’s hard to imagine something like that happening without some kind of understanding with Joe Dumars already in place.
This isn’t meant be any kind of accusatory piece or anything like that. Dumars and McDyess did nothing wrong. But that’s the point. Shouldn’t it be wrong to pull off what they just did? Shouldn’t the NBA have a stronger interest in maintaining the integrity of the rules that are place? Regardless, the Cavaliers just missed out today on a piece that would have made them the hands down favorite to win the Central Division this year, and that’s really too bad.
November 24th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Legal, yes. But it still smells worse than downtown Detroit.
November 24th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Great article, by the way.
November 24th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Carlos Boozer is disappointed in ‘Dyess’ decision
November 24th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
I heard a rumor that Dyess has Jim Thome’s wife on staff as a career consultant.
November 24th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
I hope McDyess feels real stupid when he’s sitting at home watching the Cavs in the Eastern Conference Finals (and then the finals) thinking about what he could buy with another $10mill.
November 24th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Screw it. We’re winning the whole thing anyway. We don’t need no stnikin McDyess (dirty Pistons leftover)
November 24th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Hey, I was wondering if you writers would consider putting a timestamp on the things you post here (unless there is one and I’m missing it). Sometimes I don’t know if it was a recent post, or from three hours ago, or what. Clearly the first comment is usually in the neighborhood of the initial post, but just a thought…
November 24th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
McDyess will enjoy playing for a team that lost to the T-wolves at home by 26 points.
November 24th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
[...] course, not everyone is happy: fans in Cleveland and Boston are calling foul, but who cares what they [...]
November 24th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Wow haha, sour grapes about ‘Dyess? Instead of griping about this story shouldn’t you Cleveland guys be on your knees crying for Lebron to come back after this season?? We’ll see how big of a Cavs fan you all are after he jets for New York to play for Jay-Z lol.
November 24th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
so rockking, what should the nba do exactly? you said a few times that they need to “clean it up,” but what exactly should the league do?
November 24th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
I guess I’d be all pissy about it too, had people already been talking about my superstar going to play for another team 2 YEARS from now. How does that make you feel, Cleveland? Insignificant?
Andersen Varejao: Bill Laimbeer wannabe.
November 24th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
“This isn’t meant be any kind of accusatory piece or anything like that.”
Dude, you did nothing BUT accuse throughout the whole article, based on… what, exactly? Some conspiracy theory that McDyess and Dumars cooked up some back-room deal? Do you have any evidence (outside of your feverish imagination)? Is it impossible for you to believe that a guy nearing the end of his career, already a millionaire many times over, might sacrifice some cash to play another season with his friends in a community and organization he knows and likes?
What you’re accusing Dumars and McDess of concocting is not just a “discreet secret,” it’s a serious violation of NBA rules that would earn both of them, and the Pistons organization, a stiff penalty. If you have any evidence whatsoever, put it on the table and you’ll really screw Detroit over. If not, quit hurling irresponsible accusations.
November 24th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
No, the absolute rule isn’t the 30 day rule, but the fact that a player can be bought out and then sign with another team of his choosing. I find what Sam Cassell did (force your way out and then sign with the likely champs) far more disgusting than a player forcing his way out so he can return to the team from which he never wanted to be traded. At the very least, you can blame Dice. He paid dearly for the privilege of getting to choose his place of employment. My personal bet is that he won’t stay in Detroit after this year, given how much money they cost him.
November 24th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
that should be absolute “worst” rule
November 24th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
rules are stupid, there should be no trading restrictions…
November 24th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
@quacker: since it’s evident you actually read the article, I’ll respond. The way I would fix the rule is simple. If you trade a player, under no circumstances should you be able to re-acquire that player by any means whatsoever for 6 months. That would discourage players from going back to the teams who trade them…..a disturbing practice that has been happening more and more in recent years.
For the rest of you, thanks for taking the time to come over here and troll our site without reading the article. Had you read the article, you would have seen that my frustration is not with the Pistons. They were the smart ones, because they were able to find a way to legally bend the rules in their favor. My frustration is with the NBA for having such a bizarre loophole in place. It’s clear that 30 days isn’t serving as a proper deterrent, so a longer time period needs to be put in place.
November 24th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
good thing he didnt go to the celtics or they would have a lot of cry babies at least mcdyess is sincere unlike pierce
November 24th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
pistonsfan – wow, youve got to chill out. i think rockking explained the point of the article fairly well so i won’t repeat. but seriously, its not going out on a limb to read between the lines on this one. its pretty obvious there was a “wink wink” arrangement here.
MMB12 – im willing to bet every last penny i have that lebron will be back with the cavs after this season
November 24th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
This is what I get for commenting intelligently on their site. I went over there and explained that this article was meant as a critique of the NBA and not specifically of the Pistons. Next time, Rock, you should write this same article but reference Brent Barry of the Spurs last year so you don’t ruffle any Motown feathers. Ha.
November 24th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
tom, it’s not that big of a deal. My only point was this: this article makes some serious accusations against two guys who most consider to be straight shooters. The article mentions no evidence to support these allegations other than the author’s feelings. Your response includes no evidence either, other than the fact that you consider this “wink wink” arrangement to be “pretty obvious.” Obvious is in the eye of the beholder.
WFNY EDIT: We don’t allow homophobic comments on this site, Pistonsfan. Take your hate somewhere else. – RockKing
November 24th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Haha, no kidding. But then I’ll get all the readers of Spurs blogs running over here to yell at me……oh wait, there are no Spurs blogs!
November 24th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
No hate and no homophobia was intended, Rockking. I didn’t even know your gender when I wrote it (I guess you’re a guy). It was just a simple analogy. Too bad people won’t have a chance to make up their own minds.
November 24th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
wow, a bill laimbeer reference!
November 24th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
Wow Rock, you sure ticked off Kid Rock and Eminem with this post…
November 24th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Not to mention Ted Nugent…
November 25th, 2008 at 9:40 am
pistonsfan – and my point is take off your pistons (blue and white?) colored glasses for a second and look at the situation from arms’ length. im sure joe dumars is a nice guy and he’s a straight shooter. however all these guys are going to bend the rules – not break them – to their advantage as much as possible. assuming there was a side arrangement (im not saying there was), dumars wasnt the first and won’t be the last to try and do this. its not a stretch of the imagination to think dumars wanted to unload billups to clear cap space by 2010, and the iverson exchange was a fair deal, but to make it work money-wise mcdyess had to be involved. im sure mcdyess truly wanted to return to detroit, which is admirable. not many players are dedicated to his team these days, especially when he could have gotten more money elsewhere. im sure dumars said “look, just sit it out, don’t be stupid like jerry stackhouse was last year in the dallas-NJ trade and keep your mouth shut. just play it up, take offers, mull the situation *wink wink* and come back to detroit.” mcdyess left alot of money on the table in his buyout, plus he turned down alot of money from other teams to take less in detroit. i think it will be interesting to see what kind of one-year contract mcdyess gets from detroit this offseason. if he ends up getting a nice fat one-year deal this offseason which coincidentally essentially makes up all that money he turned down, i think you might have your proof.
November 25th, 2008 at 9:52 am
“Shouldn’t it be wrong to pull of what they just did? Shouldn’t the NBA have a stronger interest in maintaining the integrity of the rules that are place?”
A resounding “Yes.”
Every time a team has done this in the past, I have been frustrated. I am happy that Dyess is back in Detroit, but the NBA needs to fix these types of moves.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:01 am
A key to this situation lies in the fact that Dyess wanted to come back to Detroit. Noted by Tom, he turned down a lot of money, and he’s right, loyalty is not an easy find in the NBA these days. An inferrence of collusion is almost moot, due to the fact that he had his chance to go to any team he wanted for more money. Lots of it.
With respect to the the commentary on the NBA trade rules, maybe the rules should be changed. Maybe the system isn’t perfect. But I can’t help but think that if the whole situation was turned around, and the Cavs returned a player that had just been traded, a different article would have been written. Probably one about how great CLE faired in it’s most recent trade, or how perfect the Cavs beat the system.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:48 am
adam – loyalty is only half my point. the other half is that dont be surprised to see mcdyess get a nice fat one-year contract this offseason from detroit to make up for what he left on the table in denver and cleveland. in other words, loyalty can easily be bought. im sure he’s happy in detroit – if he wasnt im sure he would have signed elsewhere – but unless there’s $$$ on the horizon, he’s not going to go back there just for loyalty and happiness. call me cynical.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:59 am
A cynical CLE fan talking about loyalty? I would hope you have some optimism in there. If you do, I would save it for the summer of 2010.
Only time will tell, but I don’t think Dyess’ decision was bought.
November 25th, 2008 at 11:49 am
if youre talking about 2010, lbj’s decision isnt going to come down to loyalty. its going to come down to money and championships. no matter how the ny media tries to spin it, lbj will have more money and a better chance to win come 2010 in cleveland – not ny.
mcdyess doesnt give up close to $8 mil in the buyout, and then take $3.5 mil less to re-sign with detroit if there isnt some kind of financial benefit in the future.
November 25th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
[...] McDyess is coming back to the Pistons, and some writers outside Detroit are lamenting the NBA rule that allows McDyess to re-sign with his former team, while others wonder about a secret deal [...]
November 25th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Tom – the thing is, as I understand it, if there were a “wink wink” side arrangement between Dumars and McDyess, it wouldn’t just be bending the rules. It’d be a blatant violation of both the NBA’s rules and the personal/ institutional ethics of everyone involved.
Does that mean it didn’t happen? No – maybe it did happen. Basketball is big business, Joe and Dice aren’t saints, and I imagine stuff like this happens all the time. But unless I have something more solid than cynicism and suspicion, I’m not going to come out and accuse two apparently decent guys of conspiring to defraud another team, leading dozens of other teams along for a month, and lying through their teeth about it the entire time. I think if you’re going to make public accusations like that, you need a bit of evidence to back it up – which was my only complaint about the article.
November 25th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
pistonsfan – fair enough. but again, the point of the article wasnt to really accuse the pistons but rather point out a stupid loophole in the nba rules which should be tightened up. the pistons were just an example, but the same thing happened with brent barry last year and almost with jerry stackhouse. i think the trade was just nearly finalized and it was already being reported that it was expected mcdyess would get bought out and return to the pistons.
nobody was being led along. every team knew what was up. of course as a Gm you have to be prudent and dip your toe into the waters to test, but everyone knew what was up. of course theres no hard proof which is why they can get away with it. thats why brent barry got away with it. stackhouse would have gotten away with it if he wasnt dumb enough to talk about the plan in the media.
November 25th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Our loyalty disagreement stems from whether a player will actually take less money to play for team of choice. I think Dyess is capable of that. I believe he likes his teammates, his boss, his coach, and the organization as whole.
As far LBJ’s loyalty, you say it’s going to come down to money and championships. There will be a few teams vying for his services and will have the money to make an offer, NY included. NY, being arguably the biggest market in the country, will allow him to make more money via sponsorships, jersey sales, etc, not to mention make him even more of global icon. The other half is championships. If he doesn’t win one this season or next, he won’t have one in CLE and may opt to leave. After all, any team with that man is capable of winning a championship.
I hope for your sake that LBJ has some loyalty to CLE other than money and championships, because he’ll be able to get both in bigger markets.
I hope LBJ has some of the loyalty Dyess has for DET, because it’ll only help you re-sign him.
November 25th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
I agree, the NBA ought to tighten up the rules. But I’m not convinced that Dice and Dumars are guilty of the kind of back-room dealing those rules should prevent. I actually wouldn’t be surprised if McDyess turned down the big money not because of some secret deal, but because of several other emotional and practical reasons.
Dice obviously has made many good friends on the team, the Pistons’ strength and conditioning coach (who many believe is the best in the business) has kept him healthy when most people expected his knees to blow out long ago, and he does seem like the kind of guy who’d stay loyal to a team and GM that took a chance on him when few other teams were willing to do so. I think he really wants to win a ring with the team that revived his career (though that ring looks pretty unlikely right now).
I guess, absent real evidence of fraud, I’d take McDyess at his word.
November 25th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
“A trade of Billups and McDyess for Iverson sounds somewhat fair, but a trade of Billups for Iverson straight up is in no way a fair or even trade.”
On the contrary, Billups for Iverson straight up is better for Denver on the floor, and Detroit only does that deal because it frees up cap space. McDyess was only there to do that straight-up deal under the trade rules. Remember that Denver even paid extra to buyout McD, meaning Denver knowingly and willingly did Billups for Iverson+cash.
Your assessment of player value is correct, 3 years ago. In the last 2 years Billups has become better than Iverson.
November 25th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
“A trade of Billups and McDyess for Iverson sounds somewhat fair, but a trade of Billups for Iverson straight up is in no way a fair or even trade.”
Your premise is dead wrong. Or I should say it is right, but in the different way. Billups > Iverson and it’s not even close. Take any metric you like: PER, WP48, +/-, or just a good, ol’ Tendex. Billups’ better. It was Pistons, who were dumping salary.
Ass for your main thesis, I don’t know. The rule is a joke, that for sure. On the other hand – Denver didn’t want McDyess, McDyess didn’t want to play in Denver, he gave away a part of his salary – hey, free man in a free country, right? But I agree that one month waiting period means nothing. Make it a full season or throw it away at all.
November 25th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Tom@#35 — Even as you say you aren’t doing it, you keep implying there was collusion (”there is no hard evidence which is why they can get away with it”). There’s not just a lack of hard evidence, there’s a lack of ANY evidence of collusion.
That does not mean the Joe Dumars did not have a belief in his head that there was a good chance that Denver would waive McDyess and that he’d wind up re-signing with the Pistons when he made the trade. As you recognize, every newspaper story immediately speculated that this was a serious possibility. Surely these papers weren’t tipped off to the “secret pact” between Dumars and McDyess–they just looked at the circumstances and predicted it as a likely outcome. Joe Dumars is surely smart enough to figure that out too–and if he took that into account in deciding to do the trade, more power too him…that’s part of what makes him a great GM. He still had to bear the risk of losing McDyess if it turns out his expectations were wrong, and it looks like he was willing to bear that risk to get the deal done.
That’s a very different thing than saying that the waiver of McDyess and his return to the Pistons was prearranged. Is it plausible that it was? I suppose (although by all accounts the trade came as an absolute shock to everyone on the team–doubt McDyess, who wears his heart on his sleeve, would have been expected to keep quiet about it to his teammates). But isn’t the former situation more plausible–that Dumars merely believed there was a good chance McDyess would return?
This may seem like splitting hairs, but it’s not. The first scenario is ethical and complies with NBA rules; the second is a serious ethical and league violation. I understand saying that in either case, the NBA ought to change the rule to prevent it from happening in the future, but please stop implying that everyone knows the whole deal was prearranged.
November 25th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
This is sour grapes…It’s pro ball the rules are in place but its dictated by business and money.if a guy is going to give up 10 mil then theres really not a whole lot that can be done about it.The majority of the time this wouldn’t happen
November 25th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
This happens every season Kiwi.
November 25th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
First of all, Cavs fan here. But something about this article, and many of the responses, seems a little off to me. Let me explain what I mean.
Besides the fact that it was bad for our team, what exactly was so wrong with what happened here?
What is wrong with an arrangement that serves the best interests of everyone involved? Even if the teams that weren’t involved in the trade are put at a relative disadvantage, isn’t that what a trade is supposed to do anyway? And don’t tell me that matching salaries ensures that a deal won’t be lopsided. Salaries have so little connection with value in today’s NBA that such an expectation makes no sense. You can absolutely fleece another team in a trade where the salaries match up perfectly. Obviously Detroit and Denver thought Billups-for-Iverson was a fair trade that would improve their respective situations, and I trust them to do what’s best for their teams far more than I trust a rule requiring matching salaries.
The way I look at this, it is one more person who gets a real choice about where to live and work, and one less family that has be uprooted to serve corporate interests.
Sure some fans lose out, but some fans win too. That part of the equation always equals out. The part that doesn’t is the effect on the people bearing the brunt of these changes: the McDyess family. And what would your desired rule changes really accomplish besides forcing players in this situation to relocate when that isn’t in the best interests of anybody involved?
November 25th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
matt – i hear what youre saying. but its not just that dumars thought denver would waive mcdyess and that dumars felt it was safe mcdyess would return. i guess if the dollars were even (or pretty close) then i’d have no problem with it and i can see it being a safe risk for dumars to take. however, for dumars to just assume denver would waive mcdyess, that mcdyess would take the buy-out at roughly 75% his contract value, and then mcdyess would then turn down offers from arguably better teams for more money to return to detroit is far from a safe risk. maybe everything was 100% on the up and up. i just think its pretty plausible for dumars, who knows denver wants to cut salary, to call denver and offer billups for iverson and throw mcdyess in to make it work, knowing that dice would take a bargain buyout. all dumars has to say to dice is, play it cool, act surprised, take offers from other teams, “explore” the offers and then return to detroit in 30 days, and we’ll hook you up next season. i think thats going to be the kicker. if mcdyess retires or doesnt get an offer from detroit, then fine. but i just have a feeling detroit is going to “overpay” dice on a nice one-year deal this next offseason and thats going to be compensation for helping with this trade. i have no proof whatsoever and nobody does, but lets try not to think these guys are all angels.
November 25th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Couldn’t say it better, Matt. RockKing, your problem in this post is that you continuously slip back and forth between accusatory statements and saying that you’re not accusing anyone of anything. I could give a [WFNY Edited....PLEASE read the "Before You Comment" at the top before you comment] about the Pistons, Cavs, Celtics or whoever – this is just a poorly constructed argument that seems more knee-jerk than well thought out.
November 25th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
I was trying to hold back my comments, I really was…
It’s obvious to everyone that the only REAL reason why you are unhappy is because ‘Dyess did not sign with Cleveland. It’s obvious because there is no reference to Brent Barry last season, or Gary Payton (who the rule was named after) or Lindsey Hunter in 2004, etc etc etc.
I have respect for people who believe that this was a wink wink deal, I believe that Joe D. knew ahead of time that Denver was going to buy out ‘Dyess simply because of how they dumped Camby for nothing last offseason to clear salary.
There’s honesty, and then there’s crying wolf about the entire situation. He didn’t raise a stink about it, he had been treated like crap in his two (2) stints in Denver and had threatened to retire this past offseason. Raising a stink about something is pulling a Sam Cassell and forcing a team to buy you out before the end of the season so you can sign with the Celtics, even though the Celtics don’t have the players to trade to make the salaries work.
You’re crying wolf by claiming that it’s somehow “illegal” for this to happen. How is it illegal OR legal? Do lawyers get involved? The crying wolf continues by basically guaranteeing to your readers that there was an underhanded scheme in all of this dealing, even going so far as to claim to know exactly how the negotiations with “GM” Danny Ferry went. The same Danny Ferry who didn’t have the testicular fortitude to tell Anderson Varejao to go pound sand last season when he “demanded” what? $10 million per year, when a team WITH cap room couldn’t even afford that salary.
Spare us the crumbled up kleenex, and the sore sport attitude that this “column” portrays. I’ll enjoy it when people go back to telling me how LeBron dominated Detroit 2 years ago rather than complaining about how it’s somehow “illegal” that ‘Dyess didn’t want to sign in Cleveland for MORE money than Detroit could give him. Ever heard of a hometown discount?
November 25th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
@Boney: Blah blah blah. First of all, this isn’t a national sports news website. It’s a CLEVELAND SPORTS BLOG. So of course I’m not going to write about the previous instances of this happening (even though I hated those moves just as much), because those moves didn’t directly affect the team I write about, the Cavaliers.
Secondly, when did I ever say this was illegal? I made it abundantly clear (although nobody seems to want to actually read what I wrote) that there is NOTHING WRONG with what the Pistons did under the current CBA. My point is that there SHOULD BE something wrong with it.
Finally, I never “claimed to know exactly how the negotiations with Ferry went”, as you say. I only mentioned the reports I have read from inside sources who claimed from day one that neither the Cavaliers, Celtics, nor Bobcats were holding their breath about getting McDyess because they all believed he had his mind set on going back to Detroit.
“According to a league source, the Cavs have made a contract offer to McDyess and were told McDyess is considering it. But the team is not optimistic. He can re-sign with the Pistons on Dec. 7, which is what most across the league expect.” – http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2008/11/cavaliers_insider_detroit_pist.html
You say you were trying to hold back your comments, well, I wish you would have because yours is probably the dumbest one I have read yet in this thread.
November 25th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Touchy, touchy RockKing. No need to tear poor Boney’s head off. Why not just address the point that all these criticisms are making: namely, that you made an inflammatory allegation with zero evidence and have since insisted on treating it as an established and universally recognized fact.
As for your attempts to backtrack and claim that you didn’t accuse Dumars and McDyess of actually doing anything wrong, well…
“Pistons GM Joe Dumars needed to circumvent the rules somehow.”
“He asked Antonio McDyess to play a pawn in his little game.”
“After toying around with a few teams … and pretending like he was actually considering signing somewhere other than Detroit … McDyess finally lived up to his end of the agreement with Dumars.”
That was you writing those things, wasn’t it? Conjuring up some secret agreement and accusing Dumars and McDyess of conspiring to violate NBA rules and essentially commit fraud. Based on what? The fact that some nameless sources expected McDyess to return to Detroit?
I think you need to either show some evidence for your accusations, or retract them and post an apology.
November 25th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
It’s pretty sad how all of you take the time to read articles like these and then rant about them. So what about this situation. If this was a Cleveland player instead of a Detroit player you wouldn’t care less or even if it was any other player than from Detroit none of you Cleveland fans would give a crap.
All that matters is McDiggity is coming home!! At least one player in this league is actually loyal to his team. (We all know Lebron doesn’t give a crap about his team.)
Farewell to you LECAVs fans. This is the last time I’ll be on one of your crappy sites that only make digs at the Pistons.
November 25th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Apologize? For? If you guys honestly feel that McDyess and Dumars did not have a prior agreement, then thats fine. I guess we’ll agree to disagree as neither side will obviously be switching any time soon. But to apologize for having beliefs and then blogging about them? Please.
November 25th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Whatever. Overreact to this story all you want, I made no concrete accusations whatsoever.
“Pistons GM Joe Dumars needed to circumvent the rules somehow.” – Dumars couldn’t trade Billups for Iverson because their salaries don’t match. You see, there’s a RULE in the NBA that they have to match. So, to make this trade work, Dumars had to circumvent the RULE, which he did by throwing in McDyess, whom he knew the Nuggets would buy out and would allow McDyess to go back to Detroit.
“He asked Antonio McDyess to play a pawn in his little game.” – Well, McDyess did agree to sign back with Detroit, didn’t he? How did he know the Pistons are willing to sign him without talking to Dumars?
“After toying around with a few teams … and pretending like he was actually considering signing somewhere other than Detroit … McDyess finally lived up to his end of the agreement with Dumars.” – That’s exactly what happened. He pretended to be interested in some teams, and then he re-signed with Detroit, which EVERYONE expected him to do all along. Why was it being reported the INSTANT the trade was made that McDyess was going back to Detroit if Dumars didn’t know this was going to happen?
I’m far from the only one saying there’s a chance there was a handshake deal.
Matt Watson: “Did McDyess have a handshake agreement with Joe Dumars to return all along? We’ll never know for sure, but one thing is clear: he’s leaving a lot of money on the table.” – http://nba.fanhouse.com/2008/11/24/agent-antonio-mcdyess-will-return-to-detroit/#cont
More of Watson: “All of this is a long-winded way of saying that, should Dumars and Miller share a knowing wink and a nod, McDyess might be convinced to return on the assumption that he’ll eventually get back every penny he would have earned had he not been traded in the first place.” – http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2008-11-08/mcdyess-is-soon-to-be-a-free-man/
He did the exact same thing I did. Threw it out there, said it’s possible, but then said we’ll never know.
Somehow you’re completely blind to the point. All I’m saying is that I think the NBA should considering changing this loophole rule, so we don’t have to even consider that such things are possible.
November 26th, 2008 at 9:46 am
This is getting confusing, RockKing. So the “rule” you said Dumars “needed to circumvent” is the rule that you need to trade players with equal salaries? Is that your new argument? Every GM in the league does that every time they make multiple-player trades – exactly what rule are they circumventing?
Why not just stand behind your original argument? You’re accusing Dumars and McDyess of cooking up a secret agreement behind the scenes to cheat Denver out of a player and to fake out the rest of the NBA.
Did it happen? Maybe. We’ll never know.
Do you have every right to speculate about it on your blog? Sure.
Are you being paid by Danny Ferry to publish malicious rumors about Cleveland’s rival teams? Obviously. Hey, I have no proof, but what else could possibly explain your behavior? I think I’ll post a 1000-word article about it on my blog, then whine when people criticize me.
November 26th, 2008 at 10:28 am
That’s not a new argument, that was my original argument.
Obviously I need to explain to you how the NBA rules work. First of all, there’s a rule that says that when two teams trade, all the salaries in the trade on one side cannot exceed 125% plus $100,000 of the salaries on the other side of the trade.
Dumars wanted to trade Billups for Iverson, but Iverson’s salary exceeds this limit. So, Dumars had to CIRCUMVENT THIS RULE if he wanted to swap just Billups for Iverson. He knew he had to add another player going to Denver to make the salaries work. He knew McDyess’ salary would make the trade work. He also knew that Denver would not keep McDyess, which meant he would be able to get McDyess, a player he never wanted to lose, back.
That’s precisely what happened, and that’s what rule I said Dumars needed to circumvent. I’m sorry you don’t understand how the NBA works and were thus confused.
That rule, the equal salary rule, is there for a reason. By allowing a player to sign back with his original team after just 30 days, it makes it too easy for a player to go back to his original team, which thus destroys the spirit of the equal salary rule. THAT is what I have issue with.
Did Dumars have a secret agreement? You said it the EXACT SAME WAY that I did…..maybe, we’ll never know. But that was never my point. But you were so blinded by your ridiculous Detroit bias that you somehow thought I was trying to say that Dumars did something wrong. This is precisely why I stated so many times in this article that Dumars did nothing wrong, because I didn’t want idiot homers like you to get the wrong idea. My problem is with the 30 day rule as it currently exists, NOT with the fact that Dumars may or may not have had any kind of agreement with McDyess.
November 26th, 2008 at 11:16 am
Hey, just do us all a favor: When McDyess retires at the end of this season, signs with another team or signs a contract that in no way recoups his losses, come on here and eat crow publicly.
Joe was my favorite player. I think he is a rock solid GM. But the man is also cold blooded in his own way. He totally would trade a player he knows wants to stay, knowing that he might force his way out and sign back, with no intention whatsoever of signing him back to a big deal ever again. Joe’s a good guy, but this is the same man who will fire coaches who win 50+ games their entire time with the team without a second thought, who let the face of the franchise walk when he became a free agent, etc. Did Joe probably have a good basis to think he’d get Dice back? Yes. Is there a deal to make Dice whole on the money he lost? I wouldn’t count on it one bit. Frankly, if nothing else, Joe saved the Pistons some cash. Don’t confuse Joe the player with Joe the GM. He’s management now. He may like his players and get along with them very well, but he’s in the end management. I don’t think he has a sleepless moment about how much money Dice just lost. And I don’t think Dice will ever recoup it with the Pistons.
November 26th, 2008 at 11:37 am
first off, im with amar on this one. i think you have your head in the sand if you think there wasnt some kind of “wink wink” agreement on the side any time a player gets traded, gets bought out and then resigns with his original team in 30 days (especially taking a bargain buyout) and turning down more money from other contending teams. thats just a general statement with nothing in particular to do with the pistons or mcdyess.
that being said, jack’s exactly right. if mcdyess goes to another team next season or just retires, then maybe there really was nothing more to it. maybe it was just a calculated risk by dumars that paid off. but if mcdyess signs a seemingly “bloated” one-year deal with detroit that just somehow lets him recoup what he lost in the buyout and/or what he left on the table in offers from cleveland, san antonio or boston, then i think there is more to the story. no we will never know what happened here for sure (if anything). but amar’s point is that this NBA rule has to get tightened up. whether or not the pistons did anything wrong is irrelevant. it was just used as a relevant example since that trade just happened. thats not to say the same or similar situation happens again this season by another team.
November 26th, 2008 at 11:42 am
back to what jack said, assuming there was no side-arrangement and dumars really did make a calculated risk that (1) mcdyess would not want to play in denver after the trade, (2) denver would offer mcdyess less than a 50% buyout, (3) that mcdyess would happily accept such a low-ball buyout, (4) mcdyess would turn down offers from other contending teams, some of which are 2-3 times the amount of money that detroit could give him and (5) mcdyess would wait it out and return to detroit in 30 days, then Dumars must walk around Detroit doing sam cassell’s “my nuts are the size of canteloupes dance” all day long!
November 26th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
How is it a calculated risk knowing that ‘Dyess wouldn’t want to play in Denver after he re-signed this offseason in Detroit for the 2 year deal he received?
Denver shouldn’t have to pay the man the full amount of his contract, but they should pay him something otherwise he costs them his full salary while he’s sitting at home collecting social security.
Why wouldn’t ‘Dyess accept a buyout if it means he can play for an organization that didn’t screw him twice in his career?
#4 is my favorite… why is he forced to sign for more money? He’s a free agent, and much like he did this offseason when he could’ve been available to sign somewhere else, he re-signed for a 2 year deal to stay in Detroit for 2 years. It’s no secret that his career has somewhat been revived in Detroit, and he is loyal to an organization that signed him and his knees in ‘05 when it looked like noone else would offer as much to him as Detroit did.
Why wouldn’t McDyess wait out the 30 days? It’s not like he’s going to start for Detroit. Brent Barry waited 30… I believe Kurt Thomas waited 30…
Get real you guys. I can see why you think money is the all important aspect of playing basketball because LeBron is on your team. In Detroit, you play because of the team. Billups played for Detroit up until the 2007 offseason on the MLE he signed in ‘03. We can all pretty much agree that he was worth more than the MLE he signed in ‘03. There is loyalty in Detroit… just like Maxiell signing for $20m over 5 years. He likely would’ve gotten a full MLE had he wanted to become a free agent…
November 26th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
boney – im saying the combination of all those factors happening was a pretty risky proposition. not just that mcdyess would refuse to play in denver, but then all of those other things would fall into place. its one thing to turn down $2 million in cleveland or boston (legit contenders) to return to detroit for $1.5 million. its totally different to turn down $5.5 million from cleveland to return to detroit for $1.5 million, especially after taking a buyout of less than 50% of your contract!
and by the way, you keep talking about loyalty in detroit while the other guy (jack?) talked about dumars being a “cold-blooded” GM. which is it? you really cant be “cold-blooded” and loyal at the same time. one of those 2 has to win out over the other and being cold-blooded means you cant be loyal all the time, and vice versa. i will assume dumars is a loyal guy, which all the more reason points to him being “loyal” to mcdyess for taking such a huge pay-cut and letting him recoup that money this offseason. im sure detroit is a wonderful place to live and play. ive been there many times and the suburbs are quite lovely. even the casinos downtown are pretty nice now. but lets not kid ourselves on this. all im saying is that it is quite reasonable to think there was some kind of side-deal that went down. its not completely beyond the realm of possibility considering all the facts! thats all im saying.
November 26th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
idiothomer / pistonsfan. come on man. all of a sudden pro sports are full of ethical, rule-abiding gentlemen? every GM in the league wants to bend as many rules as possible to get some kind of advantage. Dallas did this exact same thing last year in the jason kidd trade and would have gotten away with it had stackhouse not blabbed to the media. look at what mchale did a few years ago trying to sign griffin to some kind of stupid “secret” deal. look at the Cavs (paxson/gund) a few years ago with the carlos boozer situation, which came back to bite them. this stuff happens. its quite possible and reasonable to think that dumars and the pistons did a little extra here to get things to work out well.
November 26th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
boney – here is another thing to think about. lets say im 100% loyal to my company and then they go and send me to another company right out the blue. ive busted my butt for them for years, and just like that they get rid of me. the first company then says they’d like me back at a fairly small price, but then a direct competitor comes along with an offer thats 3 times as much money to go there. im still pissed at the company for dropping me after all ive done for them and how loyal i was. what better way to stick it to them than by going to the competitor for more money?
it just seems to me even less likely that mcdyess would go back there – considering how loyal he has been for all these years – after they screwed him by trading him out of the blue to denver.
November 26th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
in other words, detroit trading mcdyess after all he’s done and after all this time right out of the blue is a pretty big “F you” to mcdyess. and he’s cool with that and returns for less money? otherwise, he knew all along what was going on and played the role perfectly.
November 26th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Tom – I agree with you. It’s quite possible that McDyess and Dumars conspired to game the Denver trade, then cover up for it by lying to other teams and the media for a month. This stuff happens all the time. I’d like to think that Dumars and McDyess, two of the more respected men in the league, wouldn’t behave like that. But I can’t prove that they didn’t.
But I also can’t prove that they DID. And unless I had proof, I wouldn’t write an article premised on the certainty that these two guys are cheats and liars. There are plenty of alternate explanations for McDyess’s decision, which have been pretty thoroughly explored in the comments. It might seem implausible in this day and age, but McDyess might actually value friendship, geographic stability (he does have kids), top-notch trainers and even (gasp) loyalty over money.
November 26th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Tom,
I’ll take all 3 of your replies, and reply just once.
Another thing to consider is that McDyess had a chance to opt out of his deal and roll out of town last offseason, and he chose to re-sign in Detroit because he wanted to win a title and that’s the reason why he signed in Detroit in ‘05.
He didn’t opt out of his deal, instead, he signed a 2 year deal to stay in Detroit for even longer and showed the loyalty that the franchise once showed him when no other franchise would.
You have to remember, the guy has played for a few franchises in his career and has been in Denver twice already. ‘Dyess is a smart enough guy to know how the business of basketball works, and he knows how salaries need to match..
Why should money matter? Why is trading him “out of the blue”, like you claim Detroit did, a “big F you”? Just because you would feel betrayed by your company doesn’t mean everyone does. Mature people realize that business is business sometimes and you deal with it. When McDyess initially was traded he said that he’d rather retire than play for anyone else. To think that he would sign anywhere else, for any amount of money if he was bought out, it pretty stupid to be honest. He has been with this same team in Detroit for years, why pull a PJ Brown and jump on another roster so late in your career when you know the system and you know the players?
I’m not a Pistons’ homer, I know the deal looks shady and I understand how it does. It’s not “illegal” by any means, many teams have done it before but since this time it was done and it included a player who could’ve been the difference for Cleveland, I sense sour grapes from you donks. It’s perfectly fine with me that Cleveland fans experience sour grapes, but don’t blame it all on some kind of insider dealings because ‘Dyess didn’t take the money from CLE. I wouldn’t take the money either if I knew I had a good thing with another organization AFTER an entire career of making $10+ million per year. He doesn’t need the money… don’t you guys realize that?
November 26th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
oh and “cold blooded” Joe Dumars??? that’s funny…
what has Dumars done that’s cold blooded?
It’s not just Joe Dumars that runs the Pistons, it’s the coaches, the players that have been together for years, etc… Look past just the pretty picture on the outside and it’ll show you much more than what you get with Cleveland. Cleveland you get LeBron and not much else… I can see why it’s hard to look past that first layer
November 26th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
its not sour grapes for me. frankly i dont think mcdyess would have made much of a difference on the team. hes a good bench guy and provides depth, but i dont think the cavs changes of winning it all or not winning it all was riding on signing mcdyess. its really not a big deal to me. i thought the exact same thing when the jerry stackhouse situation came up between the nets and mavericks.
yes i do understand that he doesnt “need” the money. none of these guys do. the norm in all professional sports is to take as much money as possible no matter what. very rarely do players take less money when more money is on the table elsewhere. maybe mcdyess falls into that minority of taking less money – i dont know. if thats the case, then great.
im not the one who called dumars cold-blooded. that was jack (#54, and a pistons fan i do believe). i was just using his words. so ask him what dumars has done thats cold blooded. i really dont know. maybe it was firing rick carlisle for larry brown?
November 26th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Wow Cleveland, cry about it. McDyess is a Piston and wants to be a piston. Get over it. Pistons hate Cleveland. Why would he go there? Get your own players.
PS. Enjoy Lebron while he’s still in Cleveland cause he’s gone in 2010!!!!
November 26th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
and why is it a big “F you” if he was traded out of the blue? you said “He didn’t opt out of his deal, instead, he signed a 2 year deal to stay in Detroit for even longer and showed the loyalty that the franchise once showed him when no other franchise would.” if thats the case and he showed them some loyalty, then turning around and trading him away out of the blue is an “F you” statement if you ask me.
im done arguing this topic. if you want to believe the pistons are a pristine organization that would never, ever bend the rules or do anything shady, and abide by loyalty at all times, and dumars simply got really lucky with this “calculated risk,” thats fine by me. just make sure you take your head out of the sand from time to time to get some fresh air.
November 26th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
but all of you never said anything when this happend with dallas and new jersey last year if it was so bad.
(Edited by WFNY: Stay classy, Andrew.)
November 26th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
First off, why do you care? Would you want to play for denver right now? Does denver really need dice? no. so let him join the pistons. Why would he then, given the opportunity to go home, decide not to sign with the team that hes played with for the past 4 years, but sign with a rival? Yea that makes a lot of sense. I didn’t see you crying when Brent Barry resigned with the spurs after he got trades. If krusty the klown verejoke was traded to fit salary restrictions, and then got waived and signed with the cavs, you would not care.
PS The cavs will not be winning a ring with bron and ill be sure to go to the games when he signs with new york.
November 26th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Cleveland is pathetic. Just because McDyess is loyal, and wanted to play for Detroit, that means that this rule is a joke or something? Youre just whining because he didnt want to play for your team. If the cavs made a trade, and somebody like Delonte returned in this way, you’d throw a parade. Just whining because your jealuos that you didnt get him, and that he didnt want to play for him. If he signed with Cleveland, would you still think that the rule needed to be changed? No, you would have no problems with it. Is Cleveland scared of Detroit with the addidtion of Antonio? Thats what it sounds like.
Now when the cavs dont win the central, youll have a “legit” excuse why.
Youre going to learn about loyalty when LeBron is a knick in 2010.
November 26th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
From Spain, GO Pistons¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡ A real team not a King James team.
This year pistons return winning division and conference with A.I and stuckey and dyess in the second unit.
Enjoy with lebron,surely he goes to big apple in 2010,is really nice to see but cleveland is not a team,is a bad copy of pistons planificattion.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:16 am
All you cleveland fans need hope in BIG Z, right?
Oh go cry somewhere else, McDyess is pistons forever, even if we don’t win championships.
LeBron runs your show, so deal with what you got.
Lebron, 2010 KNICK.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:01 am
Seems to me the real issue is the author got a little butt-hurt (understandably).
November 27th, 2008 at 9:06 am
Plus, I didn’t know the author was Dumars’ confidant. He talks like he KNOWS what Joe’s motives were and that’s just foolish and reckless.
November 27th, 2008 at 11:05 am
8 MILE 8 MILE AHHHHHHHHHHH
What a bunch of over-reacting dummies
November 27th, 2008 at 11:17 am
FAIL.
November 28th, 2008 at 12:30 am
Pistons fan here.
RockKing – I hear you and agree with you that the rule should be changed. I just have two issues with what you’ve said here. You’ve repeatedly said that you think the Pistons have done nothing wrong and just skillfully bent the rules in their favor. But that is inconsistent with the headline of your article – that the McDyess held up his end of a “clandestine” deal. Such a deal would be illegal and mean the Pistons did something wrong. You later say that it would be hard to look at this objectively and not read between the lines. Again, what you are implying here and in other areas of the column is that the Pistons likely did something illegal – no matter how many times you try to take it back by saying explicitly that you think they didn’t do anything illegal. Clandestine deals are very illegal, even if no one gets caught. Insinuating their occurrence is therefore an accusation.
My second issue is the general hypothesis that this stinks of misdealing to begin with. Let’s suppose you are Joe Dumars. You know you need Dice’s salary to make this deal work. You know you want him back. And you think he might be willing enough to come back that you can make a clandestine deal with him and Denver. Denver just wants Billups. For appearances, they have to buy him out below 100 cents on the dollar (otherwise there would be no arguing the deal was arms length). But they bought him out for 50 (I forget the exact number – but it was a big, big paycut that took away a year of guaranteed money). Do you for one moment think Denver would say no to buying Dice out for 85 cents or 90 cents if it meant getting Billups? Remember, they were sellers of financial flexibility here, not buyers. And to the extent Dice was involved in some secretive deal here, you’d have to think he’d make a precondition that he’d get a healthy buyout number, right? Instead, he’s way worse off after the deal financially.
That’s not meant to be definitive proof that there wasn’t a clandestine deal. I just think the evidence is stronger that Dice is back in Detroit for one reason – he really, really, to the exclusion of all common sense, wants to be a Piston. And that’s not forbidden under the CBA (again, I know you keep saying this is just us beating a straw man since you explicitly say what the Pistons did was legal. See paragraph 1 for my response to that.)
Good luck this year, you guys have a great team (and I’m sad to say a much better chance of winning, with whomever Wally and Snow become, than we do this year)
November 28th, 2008 at 12:47 am
Sorry one last thought. I realize that Matt W and others have thrown out the notion that there might be a wink wink deal here. I have nothing against your speculation – I too think there’s a chance (and a good one…call it 25%?) that Dumars did something under the table here. I have something against statements like “Antonio McDyess surprises nobody and holds up his end of a clandestine deal to go back to Motown.” That is your headline. And it is not couched as speculation. It is written as a statement of fact. You will find no such statements from Matt. I mean, I’m probably not walking too far out on a limb to say you think Dumars is guilty as sin (read: made a clandestine agreement), right?
I simply write this in anticipation of your reaction being “how many times in this thread do I have to say that I think the Pistons were smart to do this, did nothing wrong, all I’m doing is speculating like your blogger did, etc. etc.”
November 29th, 2008 at 1:55 am
Dice is the man for making money a non-issue. Playing for a winning organization is the way to go, Labron (spelling?) should come to Detroit for less too.
One Source Talent can help him get the exposure he needs to find a good fit. One Source is a tool that helps models and actors get started in the entertainment industry. We would be happy to help that Labron guy find a team that suited him.
November 30th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
First of all, Mcdyess’ contract was 13 million over the next two years total. He then got a 2 million bump in salary because his trade kicker “kicked” in when he was traded to take him to 15 million. He was bought out for close to 7 million and he will resign for 2 million. Thus, he is only leaving 4 million on the table and the article states that he was leaqving 12 million on the table because the writer is adding McDyess’ original contract plus the trade kicker plus what Cleveland could have offered him. That is absolutely retarded. You can’t just add them and say that is how much he is leaving behind!
April 27th, 2009 at 10:01 am
[...] players who seemed to care for the Pistons were Antonio McDyess, who was probably trying to make his decision to go back to the Pistons look like the right one, Will Bynum, and Rodney Stuckey. Pistons coach Michael Curry seemed to [...]
April 28th, 2009 at 12:07 am
sorry guys… LbJ is the King. This is the result of trading Chancey to Denver and acquiring AI. Chancey and doing great and Denver and probably can advance on the next round.